Yooka-Laylee Kickstarter Backers Ask For Refunds While Devs Get Defensive
Yooka-Laylee
(Last Updated On: March 25, 2017)

Team17 and Playtonic’s community managers have been running damage control on the Yooka-Laylee situation involving the removal of JonTron for comments that were made during a live-stream debate. On the Steam forums users complaining about the developer’s decision to remove JonTron from the game are being met with censorship and bans. When users ask for refunds on the Kickstarted project they’re being met with stone walls.

Over on the Playtonic forums, one of the staff named Taylor explained…

“Playtonic do not have to refund you. There is no law or requirement for them to do so.

 

“You can try using the Backer messaging system on Kickstarter to discuss a refund. Playtonic, out of their own will, have chosen to refund backers that opted for the now discontinued Wii U version through this system. However, there is no guarantee that they will (and I don’t think they should) refund you for this situation.

 

“Hope that helps.

 

“I am locking this thread.”

Additional threads on the Steam forums have been deleted and removed or locked by the community manager, as reported in our original story about the Yooka-Laylee controversy. When asked about why the censorship was taking place, the Team17 community manager stated that it wasn’t censorship, he was just locking threads on the forum because it wasn’t a JonTron forum.

Mister Metokur did an 11 minute video showcasing some of the locked and banned threads on the Yooka-Laylee forums before they were removed.

Over on the Kickstarter page there are lots of people trying to get in contact with Playtonic for refunds, but are being shooed away for their efforts.

This all came about due to Playtonic deciding to remove JonTron as a side-character in the game Yooka-Laylee after being pressured by the members of NeoGaf to do so. Part-time contributor to One Angry Gamer, Nick Monroe, did a little bit of investigating and found that it looked like a coordinated effort by a journalist from GamesIndustry.biz and NeoGaf to get Playtonic to distance themselves from JonTron.

This all came about due to comments JonTron made during an impromptu live-stream debate with another content creator. One of the more infamous and controversial lines that was used was based on a mimetic infographic, where JonTron inferred that “wealthy blacks commit more crimes than poor whites”, as reported by Crave Online.

If you actually look at the census data for Park-Windsor Hills, an upscale black community in Los Angeles, California, it’s positioned directly next to Hyde Park, a lower class district with a high crime rate. Hyde Park had 309 violent crimes, including rape and murder, and 445 property crimes within the last six months, according to the LA Times.

The majority of the crimes that take place in Park-Windsor Hills involving violence are related to robbery and aggravated assault, many of the aggravated assaults take place on the edge of the district at Hyde Park, according to the crime report, while all of the property crimes – totaling 149 over a six month period, with burglaries and theft totaling more than 65% of property crimes – all involve stealing from the homes and cars situated within Park-Windsor Hills, according to the LA Times reports.

In essence, the data shows that the lower class blacks from Hyde Park regularly assault and steal from the rich blacks in Park-Windsor Hills.

Unfortunately, JonTron wasn’t informed about this and the media used it as a launch pad to call him a racist and white supremacist.

Many of JonTron fans and those who were neutral on the matter felt Playtonic took things a step too far by taking an action that politicized Yooka-Laylee, especially after JonTron posted an apology video.

In addition to announcing their distance from JonTron, the developers issued a statement about their commitment to diversity, and that they were removing him from the game. While many people were okay with the statement about Playtonic not condoning racism, they were not okay with JonTron being removed based on a misrepresentation of data.

While users, backers and gamers have been up in arms against Playtonic, JonTron has forgiven them and stated that he understands their position.

Meanwhile, Team17 and Playtonic have doubled down against backers, and people are now claiming that the game will turn out just like Mighty No. 9, which had a myriad of issues but saw its biggest fall when an admitted SJW community manager created bad blood between the community and the developer.

For the people who remain on the Steam forums, they’ve made it clear what message they’re currently sending to the developers.


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About

Billy has been rustling Jimmies for years covering video games, technology and digital trends within the electronics entertainment space. The GJP cried and their tears became his milkshake. Need to get in touch? Try the Contact Page.

  • Kenny Glover

    I am getting the game come the 11th (because… screw it, I pre-orderd the darn thing, and when I pre-order something I buy it regardless). Granted, I have lost a great deal of respect for Playtonic.

    Do I think Jon Tron was right in what he said? No, but he was going by statistics, and the thing about statistics is that they change constantly. They’re like the stock market, they go up and down. So it’s fair to say that he was wrong, though I still believe that he shouldn’t have removed. But personally, I don’t think Playtonic removed Jon to virtue-signal. I think they did it to cover their butts. You see now a days, we live in a very touchy society where a group of people (SJWs) pounce at any chance to make a mountain out of a molehill. I kinda understand why Playtonic did as they did. You see (and as some of you may already know) the SJWs have a lot more pull with media then they let on. They also have a tendency to pull controversies out of thin air. They take an issue which was not really all that bad to begin with, and they blow it way, way WAY out of proportions. For instance, let’s just say some random person was asked “out of any place in the world, which place would he not want to visit”, and the guy responds with “Mexico”. Well the SJWs will take what he said, and they’ll try their darndest to make it LOOK like he said that he hated Mexicans. That’s what the SJWs do, and their buddies in the media parrot it back to John Q Public.

    If I could talk to the dudes that run Playtonic, here’s what I would have to them.

    Look, I understand why you guys axed Jon Tron. But I want you guys to also understand that the SJWs who were clambering for his removal in the first place are not gamers. They don’t care about the game that you guys made. And they won’t care about future titles that you create. SJWs only care about nit-picking society. SJWs don’t play games, and if they say that they do, then they’re lying. You can’t trust a SJW as far as you can throw them. They also like to hijack fandoms (when they’re NEVER a fan to begin) so that they can further their agenda in trying to find everything and anything under the sun to be offended about. Trust your consumers. WE are real gamers, and we actually give a hoot about what you have made. The SJWs don’t, and they sure as heck aren’t the ones lining up to buy your game. Don’t give into nor cater to them either, cause they’ll only end up trying to bankrupt you in the end.

    Man was it hard for me not to cuss when talking about SJWs.

  • Γεώργιος Αρχαιοκαπηλίδης

    Screw you Playtonic! Removing JonTron for your moronic, hypocrite reasons is
    one thing. But refusing to refund backers that asked their money back
    only makes you look worse. This is what you get for mixing video games development with pseudo-social activism.

  • Rebel Lucy

    Minor correction on the mention of the Crave article, he most likely didn’t use the Crave article but rather a WashingtonPost article which found that rich blacks were arrested and convicted more often than poor whites.

    Theres a discussion to be had about why this is true but his stats weren’t based on his ignorance of the situation but rather just the reality of it.

    • Actually after reading the article it was about how poor white kids are less likely to be arrested than black kids from affluent homes:
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/?utm_term=.1fad949f18d3

      It really didn’t detail the nature of the crimes, but simply that back in 1985 only 2.7% of white kids from poor families ended up in prison, compared to 10% of black kids from homes with a higher income bracket than whites (though below $69,000).

      Theres a discussion to be had about why this is true but his stats weren’t based on his ignorance of the situation but rather just the reality of it.

      There are a 101 factors that go into those kind of longitudinal studies, and a lot of this boils down to regions, whether or not gangs or drugs were involved, and education factors. It’s easy to take some figures at face value and misconstrue the conclusions based on ambiguous correlative data.

      • Rebel Lucy

        Is that not exactly what I just said?
        I’m unsure what the purpose of your comment was.

        • Just adding some context to the claim.

  • Alistair

    The plan facts is you can get. Full refund, even if the game you back isn’t out.

    You made a contract right with a dev and they faulted, it works both ways when you sign the T&C that a contract too and Sony would not hastate to banned you if you breach the contract.

    Under U.K. law any goods that faulty can give you a refund. In fact it outright theft and iilegal.

    So yes team17 and playtonic are villains.

  • Sangria Crusader

    But what if you just want to support the genre?

    I by no means like what Playtonic did to Jon… but I’ve waited years and years for a true 3D platformer of this caliber! It’s a tough situation: On the one hand, I don’t appreciate Playtonic politicizing a game… but on the other hand, if I don’t support a developer who is deeply interested in bringing back a genre that I love, these types of games may go extinct again. And I always preferred Rare’s games over Nintendo’s back on the N64.

    I’m stuck :

    • Well here’s something to consider:
      If they politicized Yooka-Laylee why wouldn’t they politicize their next game? And if you weren’t okay with this situation, why would that change with their future products?

      • Reven

        I can see where Sangria is coming from, I don’t think he (or she) is talking about PlayTonic specifically in the future here. In a way, the 3d collect-a-thon platforming game genre rides on the success of this title. If Yooka does well, other companies will look at that success and try and mimic it, and possibly bring back a genre that died two console generations go, just like TellTale saved adventure games (to some degree).

        We’re fortunate that Yooka was DONE before this happened really, since the politicizing is entirely on the side of business and PR. I couldn’t pay full asking price for Yooka after this (like I said I’ll probably wait for a bundle, or have it gifted to me on sale by someone who doesn’t care, their money, not mine) but at the same time if the game is legitimately great, I don’t want it to fail for the sake of the genre itself. If their next title is more politicized, then let playtonic feel the full heavy consequences of pissing off gamers.

  • spambot

    i was milling about on 8chan and someone was talking about refunds (on this game no less) i heard another say a chargeback was your only hope is that true?

    • That’s one of the options, yeah.

      • spambot

        thanks for confirmation on that billy i was wondering about it as i remember the 4 chan crystals prank so i thought it would be smart to double check that

  • Izzie

    I thought Jontron was cut because of him saying something about Mexicans taking over part of the country?

  • TT

    Most people I know that were interested in Yooka didn’t even know he was going to be in it. And I don’t think anyone had a problem with JonTron being cut per se, at least, until they started spouting the “diversity” nonsense and making this political.

  • undub lover

    If you really want to play the game then pirate it, these retards don’t deserve your money.

  • ImJust1Joe .

    I can at least commend Jontron for taking the high road on all this, we don’t see a lot of that these days.

  • harlanwade

    Another day, another witch hunt bandwagon, another nail in the coffin for free speech.

    It’s too bad people keep making excuses for this behavior. They could be the next kid to make the wrong joke in a League of Legends game chat and get jailed; or the next Colin Moriarty making a joke at women’s expense on international women’s day (how dare he defile the holy day?? Sacrilege!!), only to be pressured into resigning from a company he co-founded. By the time you’re targeted for words you say, there will be no one left to defend your free speech. They will all be too afraid of becoming the next target.

  • Joshua Tribble

    First PewDiePie, now JonTron.

    “I’m the son of two immigrants, it would be foolish of me to say that immigration is impossible. I believe we should all just be referred to as Americans.”

    NAZI!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! DROP HIM FROM A GAME HE LOVES AND CARES ABOUT!!! THIS IS WSJ SPEAKING, DROP FELIX FROM MAKER STUDIOS!!!! PLAYTONIC, TERMINATE JONTRON FROM YOUR GAME!

  • Garlador

    Idiot says something stupid and offensive online. Company decides to part ways with said individual.

    I don’t see why people are outraged by Playtonic’s behavior. That’s their prerogative. If I said some ignorant, racist, offensive things publicly, my company would be in their rights to terminate a relationship with me. That’s not censorship; that’s the other-side of free speech, the one one where you can say something and others can hold you accountable for what you’ve said.

    Beyond that, if you want to boycott or demand a refund from a company because they have people who disagree with your worldview and promote views you don’t align with, you’d be boycotting every company ever. EA, Nintendo, Disney, Activision, WB, Ubisoft, Sony, Square Enix, 2K, Bethesda… they all have people working on their games that wouldn’t tolerate the things the caused Playtonic to yank JonTron.

    JonTron said some truly dumb and ignorant things, and you can disagree with Playtonic’s decision to remove his role in their game, but they are well and truly within their rights to do so. If anything, I’m surprised that so many are quick to label their response to remove him – which is fairly rational and most companies would do so – as some insidious SJW ploy or a deep-rooted conspiracy theory from NeoGAF of all things to destroy some random YouTuber.

    It’s baffling to me that there’s no more self-reflection on JonTron’s statements. Hell, I like the guy’s videos too, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think what he said was blatantly wrong and ignorant. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

    • Mr.Towel

      Actually, the most reasonable response, the way that most companies PR work is just saying “JonTron’s opinions doesn’t represent the opinion of our company” and that’s it. Washing their hands.

      When the company feel the need to fire him, purge his contribution and virtue signal about diversity while doing so. yes, it’s pretty SJW behavior.

      It’s all in their right to fire him. That’s not to say it’s cool to do it in the way they’re doing it.

      • Timothy Rincon

        When you say “SJW” like that unironically, it makes you sound incredibly idiotic. You put this over encompassing label that means ANYONE who does something even remotely left, it’s apparently SJW behavior. That doesn’t come off as amazingly uncompromising and judgmental to you?

        And what the hell do you mean “Cool to do it”? You agree that it’s their right to get rid of him. Which is it?

        There is nothing that says they can disassociate with Jon’s opinion, but also have to keep his minor voice cameo in the game.

        • Mr.Towel

          Idiotic? Do you know that social justice is academic concept much older than you and me? And you know that Social Justice Warriors defined themselves with pride through this term FIRST? Before it became a symbol of mocker?

          All what I’m saying is that their behavior is pretty similar tot hose that profess to fight for social justice in a regressive way, what we identify today as Social Justice Warriors.

          I agree it’s their right, I don’t agree it’s polite. That’s a power they have. The way they done it is abusive.

          • Timothy Rincon

            No, what’s abusive is Jon saying stupid shit online and the people complaining about this saying that Playtronic should be forced to keep in Jon’s minor cameo.

          • Mr.Towel

            That’s your own sense of reasonability.

          • Timothy Rincon

            It’s either that or what Playtronic did.

          • Mr.Towel

            Black or white thinking. There has always been a middle ground.

          • Timothy Rincon

            The basic facts of the matter is that Jon fucked up with his controversial words, so Playtronic doesn’t wish to be associated with him. It would just be hypocritical to not want to be associated with him, but keep the cameo in.

          • Timothy Rincon

            This is the middle ground. You’re acting like the company is tar and feathering Jon and ready to burn him at the stake.

      • Garlador

        “Fire him” is a bit misleading. They offered him the role, he took it, and they removed his work from the final product. Happens all the time. It’s not like he was a contract employee with them either. It was a one-off thing.

        Besides, if you want the game with his work included, it’s still going to be on the disc. Just don’t download the patch that removes it.

        • Mr.Towel

          Fire him is a figure of speech.

          • Garlador

            “You’re fired” is a colloquialism for terminating someone’s employment. JonTron was never employed at Playtonic. It’s pedantic, but it’s not the correct figure of speech to use for this situation.

            “Taken out of the picture” is more appropriate, but that makes it feel a bit too mafioso, don’t you think?

    • Except EA/BioWare didn’t yank Manveer Heir when he spent a good portion of his social media time with his employer’s name plastered all over his profile saying racist stuff.

      • Garlador

        You mean the same Manveer Heir that has left the company and is trying to start his own company? Rumor mill suggest Bioware gave him the cut.

  • RetroGamer

    Why are the communities of indie game projects always managed by freaks with blue, green or pink hair?

    • VLOCKUP

      I remember the time when special snowflake means unique and well.

      Nowadays… I rather distance myself from those who color their hair like that.

  • Timothy Rincon

    It’s called fucking business sense people. If it turns out someone involved with your project is revealed to be a huge asshole or whatever, it’s the project leader’s full right to distance the project from said asshole. This has nothing to do with censorship.

    • Social Justice Warrior

      You are funny, bro. How is this turning out now? The developers face one of the biggest gaming shitstorms in recent gaming history. GG PlayTonic, you really dodged the bullet there.

      I can guarantee you, this will affect PlayTonic in some way. Maybe, just maybe not with Yokaa Laylee (because they have the money already, thanks to this Kickstarter crap) but I can definitely see their image ruined for future games, if they even bother after this one.

      PlayTonic censoring and mocking their customers and backers alone is already too much! You should not support a company that mocks you or censors you for disagreeing with them. PlayTonic is done. And that’s good.

      • VLOCKUP

        Funny that this Social Justice Warrior makes an agreeable statement.

        I want to see future screwups by Playtonic before they went down with shaming glory kek

  • METEOR MAN

    i hope people actually boycott this shit
    instead of just threatening
    there are lots of games coming in 2017

    • Garlador

      If you boycotted every game that had someone involved who disagreed with you and your worldview, you’d never play any games. EA, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, 2K, Ubisoft, Activision, Bethesda… they all have people on their development teams who agree with Playtonic’s actions and would have done the exact same thing.

      That’s the nature of media art; it takes a village. And the odds that someone in that village is a jerk is pretty much 100%. So if you boycott Playtonic, you should also boycott every single other game studio out there for having someone involved that shares their views.

  • YuCMi

    There are no right or wrong opinions, but the left insists that there are. Coincidentally, all leftist opinions are the ‘correct views’.

    • Mr.Towel

      “All cultures are equal, none is superior. Except western culture obviously, it’s too white, fuck them”

    • Timothy Rincon

      The fact that you’re reducing this to a “leftist” issue just shows how ignorant you are of the situation. If a person doesn’t want someone involved with your project, you have every right to boot them off.

      • Mr.Towel

        It does seem a leftist issue when only controversial figures from the right get the axe.

        And yes, it’s their right to fire them.

        That’s not to say is cool to do so in this way.

        • Timothy Rincon

          In what way? They said that they wished to distance themselves from Jon due to his comments. People overreacted to this and wanted refunds (Even though the game itself isn’t even out yet and there’s no signs or proof whatsoever of the game’s actual quality)

          Even when you seek refunds from stores in person, you have to follow their rules for HOW you get a refund. And keep in mind? Refunds are not a right, they’re a privilege.

          • Mr.Towel

            If they wanted to just distances themselves from the JonTron most wouldn’t have a problem with that. They could say “the opinions of JonTron doesn’t represent the opinions of our company” and leave it at that, that’s how companies dealed with this kind of bullshit in the past.

            But no, they feel the need to purge, to delete his work for the game, to fire him and clearly signal that JonTron is out of question for them. This is not merely distencing yourself, getting dettached from the issue. This is virtue signaling, it’s about ideological purity, not diversity, not communication not anything.

            And second, if you’re an investor in a project, you do HAVE a legal right to get your money back should you want out of the project. I know it doesn’t work that way for crowdfunding but it is the same ethical precept. I don’t support what they’re doing with my money, so let me “distance” myself from them as well.

          • Timothy Rincon

            So what, they say that JonTron doesn’t represent the opinions of their company, but they still have to leave his minor cameo in the game? Why? How is removing that cameo not just part of distancing from the game? And keep in mind, JonTron just gave a minor voice cameo in the game. He didn’t actually “Work” on it.

            And what the hell do you mean by “ideological purity”? That’s seriously overblowing an issue to the point of putting some overencompassing label, making it a bigger deal then it really is. It’s simpler then you think:

            -Jon said some stupid shit online.
            – Playtronic didn’t want to be tied to such a controversial person, so they say so and take out his cameo from the game.

            You’re basically arguing that Playtronic can say they don’t agree with Jon, but they have to suck it up and keep his cameo in the game anyway. How is that in anyway fair to them?

          • Mr.Towel

            No, I’m saying that their feeling the NEED to remove his work from their game shows lack of character. They can’t approve different opinions. It’s their way or the highway. Purity. They can’t just distance themselves. They have to make a big deal out of it and take their toys away. As I said, all in their right to do so, not to say that it is pretty.

            And he did more than voicing, much of the project’s support came from his own marketing of this game to his fans, his community. His contribution to the game itself is minor, but not what it meant to him and his fans. This controversy over his firing is only happening because many knew about the project through him. Many are raging because they feel they knew about the project through JonTron and Playtronics behavior is not reasonable. Not that it isn’t in their right, it just that it feels way too much, they’re making a tempest in a teapot by firing him and purging his work, specially the way they have gone about it. Speaking high and mighty about diversity, moral superiority and not giving fucking refunds. That’s why I said virtue signaling, that’s why I said purity. They want to remain “pure” it’s not that they don’t want his work associated with them, but not even touching his game, not even in it. And they have to make a big public point about it. It’s such a narcissistic crap. That’s not the way most companies deal with this stuff.

          • Timothy Rincon

            What’s narcissistic crap is claiming JonTron did more then he did, when it was Playtronic who put in the time and effort to make the game, who got the original developers from the old collectathon games to make this kind of game that people have been wanting for years.

            And again, you still haven’t exactly come up with an alternative. If someone involved with something you worked on immensely did something incredibly stupid, would you want them involved?

            Also, you haven’t addressed the issue of what would happen if they left him in, that people would be just as idiotic like this and make complaints claiming that Playtronic support Jon’s views.

          • Mr.Towel

            Am I saying he did more than he did? I’m saying he did some work inside the game, and some work as marketer, talking about the game, spreading the word. All things he did. If he was paid for it or not it’s another matter.

            The alternative is simply distance themselves from it, the middle fucking ground. Just say that his opinions are not theirs and regardless of his opinion they appreciate the work he has done for his game. You know, not because someone is vile in one area of his life that suddenly all his other work are crap and need to be purged. Only narcissistics think this fucking way. Only stupid people would require such ideological purity from the game.You can find good stuff even in the most vile of the human beings. Yes, there will be people taking issue with that, but the point being, it clearly wouldn’t be so fucking many. The issues never arised to begin with, they fired him preemptively to avoid a possible controversy, not because of a controversy that was already there, there wasn’t any huge uproar against his work on the game, most people didn’t even know, it was neogaf and heir ilk making a big deal out of it.

          • Timothy Rincon

            They ARE distancing themselves from Jon! That’s what the statement and taking his voice cameo out is. Keep in mind that the cameo was originally a friggen gift and privilege in the first place. It’s not Playtronic’s fault that Jon decided to act like an idiot and Playtronic felt he abused that privilege.

            It has absolutely nothing to do with narcissism or “ideological purity”. It’s about not being connected with someone who is obviously controversial and made controversial statements. You’re pretty much seeing things that aren’t actually there.

    • Garlador

      Right-leaning Republican weighing in here.

      Even I think Playtronic was correct to remove JonTron for his statements and beliefs.

      It’s not just a leftist thing.

    • Joshua Tribble

      And to the right-wing, all leftist opinions are “wroooong” and are “liberal pussies”

    • NHavocJ

      Leftist opinion: People should be respected and not discriminated against.

      Right…ist opinion: Mexicans are all drug dealers and rapist.

      One of these people don’t deserve a seat at the table. Fuck your moderate both sides bullshit.

      • YuCMi

        As far as I know, many leftists consider whites as fair game in terms of discrimination and racism.

        “Something something reverse racism doesn’t exist!”

        Both sides stereotype, but of course not everyone on both sides does it.

        I believe the complimentary straw man for “Right…ist opinion: Mexicans are all drug dealers and rapist” is “Leftist opinion: All whites are privileged and racist”

        • NHavocJ

          Who is discriminating against white people? Who is doing everything in their power to make life harder for white people? Racism isn’t just about hating a race. It’s about the idea of being superior to other races and doing everything in your power to screw with them and keeping those systems that do in place. There is no reverse racism. You may be thinking about bigotry.

          • YuCMi

            “Who is discriminating against white people? Who is doing everything in their power to make life harder for white people?”
            Race quotas for jobs and universities, and other things of the like. Oftentimes black people will very visibly avoid white people, then you have things like this:
            http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/16/university-michigan-protesters-demand-separate-equal-safe-space-black-students/

            “Racism isn’t just about hating a race.”
            Actually, yes, hating a race is racism. Definitions of racism may vary, but thinking that your own race is superior is not a requirement.

            “There is no reverse racism.”
            Yes, there is, I’ve seen it often enough, whereas I’ve never (in person) seen a white be racist against a black in my entire life. Bigotry is irrelevant to what I’m talking about.

  • static5225

    The Regressive Left continues to ruin media that people enjoy. I saw the Destiny vs JonTron debate and while JonTron made some dumb statements, he is not a racist neo-Nazi. One just need to watch two of Sargon’s live streams to figure that out.

    But no, opposing mass immigration without proper vetting is apparently a neo-Nazi position. Saying that blacks commit more crime per capita than whites is apparently a neo-Nazi position. Saying that Japan does a good job protecting its own culture is a neo-Nazi position.

    And I see similar rhetoric on other forums such as VGChartz with some people saying that it’s an “undeniable fact” that JonTron is a racist and nor-Nazi, though thankfully there are a bunch who don’t buy that BS and oppose Playtonic’s behavior, and don’t get censored for it.

    Before I stop my rant, I want to share Chris Ray Gun’s latest video because it perfectly portrays the Regressive Left’s behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AhGYo9TExU

    • Timothy Rincon

      It’s not censorship. JonTron has every right to have his opinion and he can say it all he wants. That doesn’t mean his involvement has to be forced down’s people’s throats even when people don’t want it. Just because people have the right to say something, doesn’t mean you can trample over other people to force what you want to say to other people. That’s just propaganda.

      • static5225

        Reread my comment. Nowhere did I mention censorship or alluded to it once, so good job smacking down a phantom argument.

        • Timothy Rincon

          Jon still said idiotic things and Playtronic has every right to distance themselves from him as much as they want.

          • static5225

            Which is irrelevant to what I was talking about and therefore, not a refutation.

            But to entertain your red herring, freedom of speech goes both ways. Consumers have the right to express their grievances towards Playtonic. Playtonic didn’t censor JonTron, but they did censor people who expressed their disappointment. The developer could’ve just said, “Sorry, we understand your frustration, but we felt that this was the best decision”, but they didn’t. Even a “Sorry, we will not offer refunds” would suffice. Instead they responded by banning users and locking threads. Meanwhile, JonTron acted professionally and left his Twitter open.

            Actions speak louder than words.

  • Mr.Towel

    They already showed lack of character by firing JonTron, it’s no surprising they’re showing the middle finger to their investors.

    So tolerant!

    • Timothy Rincon

      Oh yeah, cause Jon has been 100% innocent and did absolutely nothing wrong.

      /sarcasm.

      • Mr.Towel

        Wrongthink you mean?

        Because he’s clearly not racists and already admitted he spoke some crap.

        /s But the sin has already been committed, even after acknowledge his faults, he spoke haram, PURGE HIM! /s

        • Timothy Rincon

          A company has every right to distance them and their projects from a person who makes controversial comments. That’s not censorship.

          • Mr.Towel

            It’s not, I’m not saying it’s censorship, not a direct at least.

            I’m saying that the way they’re going with this, the way they’re firing him, shows lack of character. This is not a legal judgement of what they have the legal right to do or not. This is simply an statement about how much of a dickhead they’re being about all this.

            It’s all in their right to do so, that’s not to say they’re not being dicks about it. Diversity my ass, it’s only their kind of diversity. To begin with, the controversy was a non-issue, there was no controversy over JonTron on the game till obviously politically charged groups decided to complain to Playtonics. There wasn’t a sudden uproar against JonTron in the project comunities. It was simply a vocal minority that Playtonic decided to pander, probably because they believe the same thing as this vocal minority.

            It’s all in their right to do it. They’re still dickheads for using their power in this way. They don’t care about discussion or simply distancing themselves from the issue, they just care about their ideological purity and their need to virtual signal, to pander to this vocal minority.

          • Timothy Rincon

            And Jon isn’t a dickhead for saying such stupid shit online?

            Besides, what was Playtronic going to do? It basically had two choices:

            1. Leave Jon in and people would complain and raise a stink claiming that they support Jon’s views.

            2. Distance themselves from Jon and people raise a stink about censorship and “LEFTIST!” claims.

            Either way, Playtronic gets shit on for a mistake Jon makes. And that’s ultimately not fair to them.

          • Mr.Towel

            No, they could just say, “his opinion is not ours” and that’s the end of it.

            People say stupid shit on the net all the time but MUCH MORE importantly, he admitted he spoke some crap.

            “Not enough, he still spoke that which is forbidden, haram, purge him!”

          • Timothy Rincon

            Ok stop. When you exaggerate with terms like “haram” like that, it makes you sound like some kind of crazed fanatic.

            What you’re failing to realize is that this literally has nothing to do with ideals or “LEFTIST!” or whatever other labels you cna put to it. It is strictly a business matter. And the simple fact is, being associated with controversial people can be bad business.

            Again, you’re being unfair to Playtronic in that they can say they don’t agree with Jon, but are forced to associate with him regardless.

          • It is strictly a business matter. And the simple fact is, being associated with controversial people can be bad business.

            Adam Baldwin has said some pretty controversial things but I don’t remember him being removed from any games as a retroactive “distancing”.

            A lot of people say a lot of controversial things, whether on a public forum, in debate, heck even in commercials. Does it necessarily mean they all need to be publicly flogged, branded and outcast?

            I think Playtonic could have easily distanced themselves from JonTron but left his work in the game.

            Just like BioWare should have distanced themselves from Manveer Heir’s comments but left him on the team and kept his work in the game. It doesn’t always have to be either/or. It feels like despite our advanced tech and access to knowledge bases the world around, we’ve somehow come to a point in society where we’ve lost empathy for employing nuance.

          • Timothy Rincon

            If Playtronic left Jon’s cameo in the game, do you honestly think there wouldn’t be anyone who’d complain and claim they support his views?

          • Who even complained about JonTron being in the game other than the SJW game journalists lurking NeoGaf? I didn’t know about him being in the game and didn’t care, and most other people didn’t either.

            There’s a such thing as separating someone’s work from their personal opinions so long as those opinions don’t encroach upon their work. In this case, there was absolutely nothing tying JonTron’s views to Yooka-Laylee except for GI.biz and NeoGaf.

            It’s identical to the WSJ tying PewDiePie to Nazism by cherrypicking and taking certain clips of his out of context to start a witch hunt. No one else — out of the 50 million people following PewDiePie — were talking about him being a Nazi.

          • Timothy Rincon

            I would think that Playtronic, the people who MADE the game and the ones who GAVE the offer in the first place to Jon, would know in fact that Jon was in the game.

            Also, I’m pretty sure Playtronic didn’t outright call Jon a Nazi. So no, it’s not identical.

          • Yeah sure, but by that logic you’re saying anyone who has views others disagree with should be purged from a project if the designers find out about it.

            Like we’ve said elsewhere in the thread, then you have to remove everyone from every game where they hold a view that people (minority or majority) may not agree with.

            It turns into neo-McCarthyism; a blacklist of ideologies that ties every thought you share with the work you do.

          • Timothy Rincon

            That’s just a slipperly slope fallacy. You’re thinking one small incident that is in no way what you think it is, will automatically become a horrible situation with zero proof to back it up.

            People have the right to their opinions, but that doesn’t mean they have the right to force their opinions on others. If Playtronic’s people share the opinion that they don’t want Jon and his controversial opinion tied to theirs, it’s their right to do so.

            Keep in mind, Playtronic hasn’t done anything illegal or against anyone’s rights by doing this. If anything, by forcing Playtronic to keep in Jon’s cameo when they chose not to? You would be violating THEIR rights.

          • People have the right to their opinions, but that doesn’t mean they have the right to force their opinions on others. If Playtronic’s people share the opinion that they don’t want Jon and his controversial opinion tied to theirs, it’s their right to do so.

            Sure, no one is contesting Playtonic’s right to do so. A lot of fans just don’t think it was the right decision.

            Keep in mind, Playtronic hasn’t done anything illegal or against anyone’s rights by doing this. If anything, by forcing Playtronic to keep in Jon’s cameo when they chose not to? You would be violating THEIR rights.

            No one is talking about forcing Playtonic to do anything, but “public opinion” is based on the public facing part of Playtonic that directly interacts with their fan base, and their fan base is telling them that they’re making the wrong decision.

            Now maybe it’s just a minority of their fans saying this, maybe a majority of people now think JonTron is racist, maybe a silent majority agrees with Playtonic. But the thing is, you only make public facing decisions when the public actually cares, and the public didn’t care until after Playtonic made the decision.

          • Fear Me I Am Free

            I seriously doubt it’s anywhere near a majority who think Jon is racist. I mean he’s already regained all the subs his lost.

          • VLOCKUP

            Jee, what is he, a Nazi that deserves to be punched?

          • Timothy Rincon

            Nazi’s deserve to be punched.

          • Mr.Towel

            They are not forced to associate with him, they can pretty much distance themselves from him. The way that they are doing it’s the problem, it’s what is too much.

            And no, when they include leftism lexicon in their phrasing its pretty clear it is an ideological reason.

            Haram was meant to be stupid, was meant to show how much a cult this ideological purity seems like. It seems almost religious.

          • Timothy Rincon

            “Leftist lexicon”? WTF are you even talking about now? Do you think people who use certain words or phrases now belong to some wide encompassing conspiracy now?

          • Fear Me I Am Free

            They wouldn’t have if the media smear campaign hadn’t happened taking what he said out of context and making it look MUCH worse than it actually was. He didn’t deserved to get booted at all.

          • Timothy Rincon

            Jon was given a chance to explain his views better or give a chance to elaborate, and instead he doubled down and came off incredibly racist. So of course people are going to want to distance themselves from him.

        • Garlador

          Just because he (kinda) apologized doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have to live with the consequences too. That’s part of being an adult.

          • Mr.Towel

            Unreasonable consequences? So forgiveness is not a virtue? Nor tolerance?

          • Garlador

            Forgiveness doesn’t absolve people of consequences. Tolerance doesn’t absolve people of backlash. My parents forgave me for every bad thing I did, but I still got punished for doing it.

          • Mr.Towel

            Playtronics is not his fucking dad, it doesn’t work as metaphor, adults don’t have the same relationships between themselves as children and their parents.

          • Garlador

            Fine. I’ve been forgiven by my boss before, but that doesn’t mean he won’t dock my pay if I do something that makes the company look bad.

  • AR7777

    “Playtonic do not have to refund you. There is no law or requirement for them to do so.”

    Wow, this is a pretty stupid statement. I can understand they want to distance themselves from the “pure genetics” semite but this shit is unacceptable as a fellow consumer. And the banning and shutting down on steam? Unacceptable.

    • Timothy Rincon

      How is it stupid? That is their policy. No rights or laws were broken .They are literally just stating what people deserve to know.

      • AR7777

        It’s stupid because people donate in good faith, keyword donate.

    • RetroGamer

      Doesn’t the name “Playtonic” group all the members into a singular unit? If so, shouldn’t it be “Playtonic does not have to refund you”?

      • Kain Yusanagi

        Because for whatever fucking reason, businesses are considered as legal persons for the purposes of contract signage. It was originally meant to save time from having every employee having to sign off on a contract, but as we’ve all seen it causes way more trouble than it fixes, and more legal issues as well, with people trying to argue that it makes them legal personages completely, and not just the narrow window that they’re allowed regarding contract law. Even then, it bypasses company employees being aware of the dirty dealings of the contracts they’re being forced into, too.

      • AR7777

        I didn’t write the statement

        • RetroGamer

          I was talking about the Playtonic forum moderator who wrote it, not you. Sorry for not being more clear about that.

  • durka durka

    pirate it

  • fnd

    lol, jontron really used that altright meme i posted in the other comment section? Even if not true, this is powerful rethoric and will get people thinking about it

    • He used the stat based on the meme. I suspect he may have been fed the info.

  • Reven

    It’s all sad because I still want to see Yooka-Laylee BE a good game, we need a new good 3D collect-a-thon platformer. The last great one I played was Jak and Daxter. Here’s my thing, for me it’s not removing Jon from the project, it’s partially the reasoning for it, but mostly the few people doing PR being dumbshits. IF the game is good, then I will happily buy it… as part of a Humble Bundle, and make sure their slider is set to 0.

    • Garlador

      It takes a village to make a game. Support the hard-working and good people who are doing the trench work – programmers, artists, composers, etc. If you really think about it, EVERY game you’ve likely ever played had a jerk involved in making it, but it doesn’t make sense to punish a hundred people who poured their hearts into something great because of the actions of a few. If that were the case, none of us would ever watch any movies, listen to any music, or play any games.

      • Kain Yusanagi

        And it takes a village to not only kick someone out of it, but tear down their house and raze and salt their fields. They didn’t speak out against it, internally or externally, so they can burn with the rest of their village.

  • Disqusted

    First thing I thought when I saw the header is “I was under the impression the devs were being more offensive than defensive”. Assuming what Metokur says is true, anyway.

    Dina was on the offensive for Mighty No 9, too: actively banning people over things they said outside of the Mighty No 9 forums, etc.

  • FlamingoJet

    I can’t even get them to answer me on when they are going to give all the backers the Toybox like they said there we looking into doing. Anyone whom’s asked has been met with a brickwall.

    But if you pre-order their fucking game, you sure get it.

    What a fucking smack in the face to their fucking backers.

    I’m beginning to get quite upset I backed this, honestly.

    • static5225

      Here’s what you (and other people who backed the KS) should do. Sell/Share your copy and/or pirate the game. The person that pays for your copy will be paying you, not Playtonic.

    • Timothy Rincon

      Why? Because Jon fucked up and said stupid things, thus Playtronic want to distance themselves from it? What the hell did you expect them to do? Just stay connected and draw controverversy by letting him stay? People would just end up accusing them of supporting what Jon said! So either way, Playtronic loses for something Jon did!

      You’re being incredibly unfair.

      • FlamingoJet

        What Jon has said has absolutely no bearing on his role in the game or on Playtonics views.

        They are going for SJW points and let Neogaf BULLY them into doing it and then when people get upset about it and tell them, they are met with censorship, bans, and other shenanigans.

        This is not the proper way to handle a situation.

        • Timothy Rincon

          What makes you think they wouldn’t have done this if NeoGAF never told them?

          • Maybe because outside of NeoGaf, everyone interested in the game weren’t talking about it?

          • Timothy Rincon

            But the people within making the game obviously knew Jon as they’re the ones who invited him to make the cameo in the first place. You’re basically suggesting that the developers are completely ignorant to everything that goes on outside of their company, even when it involves something connected to one of their projects.

          • But like other mentioned, if they’re going to excommunicate JonTron for things he said that they disagreed with, then they shouldn’t have any problems also excommunicating backers as well — so they should be okay with giving their money back right? But that doesn’t seem like the case at all. They want to keep their money but they don’t want the backers hanging around who agree with Jon.

            It’s piss poor business all the way around.

            They shouldn’t have said anything. They didn’t have to excise JonTron’s character from the game. The only reason any company makes a public statement is when the public pressures them to do so. As it’s already been established, none of the general public knew or cared. Playtonic wanted to virtue signal and use Yooka-Laylee as a political platform.

            So great, they’ve now divided their community, garnered lots of negative press and ill will from gamers, and still managed to come across as bigoted in the eyes of some gamers. And as mentioned, banning and censoring people while denying refunds makes them come across as two-faced and hypocritical.

            What part of this turned out well for Playtonic?

          • Timothy Rincon

            Refunds are a privilege, not a right. Even in stores that offer refunds, you have to follow their rules to do it. Not to mention the reasoning for said refund is incredibly stupid. It’s like wanting a refund for a product from a store just because an employee of said story insulted you outside of work.

            And quite frankly, I don’t believe for a second this will ruin the game. The fact remains is a lot of people have wanted a Banjo-Kazooie-esque collectathon game for the longest time. I certainly won’t let some whiners complaining over nothing stop me from getting a copy.

          • Refunds are a privilege, not a right. Even in stores that offer refunds, you have to follow their rules to do it. Not to mention the reasoning for said refund is incredibly stupid. It’s like wanting a refund for a product from a store just because an employee of said story insulted you outside of work.

            Dude, this literally works both ways. You’re saying Playtonic was offended at what JonTron said and decided to remove him from the game, and that’s okay but people who want refunds because they were offended by the studio’s decision are acting stupid?

            Come on man?

            If Playtonic thinks JonTron is too toxic for their game because of what he said, then the money of those who support JonTron should be just as toxic. Or are we at a point where we justify that the money of perceived bigots is okay, just not what they say?

          • FlamingoJet

            That’s exactly what is happening. His words aren’t no good, but his money; that’s just fine.

            The userbase that supported us through him, fuck ’em. But their money? Oh ho, that’s good, got to be keeping that.

            Honestly, if I hadn’t already backed this project, I’d probably give it a pass, just based on how they are treating their customer base.

            Not to mention SJW’s have clearly infected them.

          • Timothy Rincon

            A public statement made by someone slightly related to a company is different from a business transaction.

          • They made a statement based on a business transaction they redacted (namely JonTron’s participation in the game). It’s no so far removed from the business transactions of taking money from the people who hold Jon’s views, or the people who simply disagree with Playtonic’s actions. The fact that they’re okay with rescinding one transaction while upholding the other speaks volumes to the company’s integrity (or lack thereof).

            If what Jon said was really so damaging, then everyone who agrees with Jon should also get a refund if they’re willing to part ways with him on those grounds.

          • Timothy Rincon

            Or, and this is the much simpler and via Occam’s Razor more likely answer, the reason for asking for a refund is not good enough.

          • static5225

            If what Jon said was really so damaging, then everyone who agrees with Jon should also get a refund if they’re willing to part ways with him on those grounds.

            And that’s the second hypocritical thing Playtonic has done on top of censoring disagreement. A Youtuber by the name of Wild Smile uploaded a video reading through a handful of comments on the Kickstarter. The vast majority of them (albeit in a sample) disagreed with Playtonic’s decision and asked for a refund.

            The amount of backers who side with JonTron is not insignificant. If Playtonic really wants to stick to its guns and truly distance away from Jontron, then the developer should not accept money from people who support JonTron. Otherwise, that would be double standards.

          • Timothy Rincon

            People paid for Yooka-Laylee, a collectathon game that’s a throwback to classic collectathon games from the N64. Not for a Jontron Cameo.

          • static5225

            Strawman fallacy. Nowhere did I say people paid for a JonTron cameo. Only you brought that up, so once again great job at striking down a phantom argument.

            Playtonic’s decision in an attempt to dissociate itself from JonTron only revealed (Streisand Effect, anyone?) that a lot of backers side with JonTron. If Playtonic wants to stick to its guns and be consistent with its principles, then they should give refunds to demonstrate complete dissociation.

          • Timothy Rincon

            Except technically that money was already used to actually pay for the game to be made. Ergo the money has already been spent. They made an investment into a product to be made, not for a product alone, even if a copy of said product can be given for higher amounts of money.

            And frankly IMO, these backers are idiots for siding with Jon. As far as I care, I hope they don’t get refunds over such stupid reasoning.

          • static5225

            You’re still refuting against a non-existent argument and therefore, not a counterargument. This is about association and dissociation, not about what the money is technically used for.

            Long story short, complete dissociation from JonTron includes dissociation from backers who side with him. PlayTonic’s statement made it clear that they want to dissociate from JonTron. Therefore, they need to be consistent with their principles and not only sticking to them when it’s beneficial.

            Also, some of the backers already got refunds. Even if they can’t get refunded, they can still vote with their wallet by giving their copies away to other people. That way, the money of those who want the game do not go to PlayTonic. Pirating is another such measure to take.

          • Timothy Rincon

            Even so, I find their stance in this to be incredibly stupid and Playtonic’s actions are entirely justified and well within their rights to do.

          • static5225

            Doesn’t matter what your opinions are on the refund requests as they are entirely irrelevant to what I am talking about, doubly so when you are stating your off-topic opinions ad nauseaum. Fact of the matter is that PlayTonic is not willing to adhere to its principles 100% contrary to its committal statement on JonTron.

          • Timothy Rincon

            And the fact of the matter is Jon said some very stupid things and Playtonic had every right to seperate away from him.

          • static5225

            Even so, I find their stance in this to be incredibly stupid and Playtonic’s actions are entirely justified and well within their rights to do.

            And the fact of the matter is Jon said some very stupid things and Playtonic had every right to seperate away from him.

            Ad nausueam fallacy. Repetition doesn’t make your point relevant. It still does not address Playtonic’s unwillingness to 100% commit to its statement. Separation is separation, not a loose connection.

          • FlamingoJet

            Going to correct you here. Refunds are not a privellage and are very much a consumer right in some countries. In fact, in Aussieland, they are a law.

            My buddy was just talking about this the other day.

            Actually, your given example, I’ve seen it and I’ve seen refunds given out for it, first hand.

            So no, it’s not beyond the scope of reality.

            I don’t think it’s going to ruin the actual game, but it’s going to definitely hurt their profits, they were really stupid to make a spectacle of it. Did anyone say anything about you getting the game? Nope but you aren’t everyone are you? Highly suggest you realize their are opinions outside your own.

            “Hey Playtonic, was it worth it for those SJW points?”

          • Timothy Rincon

            I dunno, does all these whiners thing ruining the best kind of collectathon game that tens of thousands at least were willing to put up money to get a chance to see?

            Because really, Yooka-Laylee the game is the real victim here. It’s a game that people have honestly wanted for a long time and it could get overshadowed and outright dismissed just because of all this.

          • FlamingoJet

            Game’s already done. Nothing to ruin. It’s already gone gold.

          • Timothy Rincon

            I mean it could be overshadowed and not get sold as much as it deserves because of this.

          • FlamingoJet

            Lol, that won’t happen.

      • Macavity

        All they had to do was say something like “The opinions of our voice actors do not reflect the views of the rest of the Yooka-Laylee team” and leave it at that.

        But no, they had to go full-on Virtue Signal in an attempt to avoid a shitstorm… and wound up sparking one anyway because of how poorly they handled the situation.

        • Timothy Rincon

          Its basically no different from Disney booting Pewdiepie for his stupid Nazi jokes.

          • Macavity

            And Disney could have made a similar statement.

  • EmoryM

    I’m not a huge JonTron fan but I hate how the left punishes everyone for our opinions. Playtonic will never get a cent from me.

    • Garlador

      “Opinions” are not all equal. Some opinions, in fact, are unethical and should be condemned. I think if your opinion has you siding with white supremacists like David Duke, that racism is over and black people are inherently more predisposed to crime than white people, and saying us foreigners just need to “assimilate into the gene pool”, I think that’s an opinion that’s worth calling out and punishing, because it’s ignorant, unhealthy, and morally wrong.

      • Mr.Towel

        It’s called Free Market of Ideas, it means I protect your right to speak even if I believe your speech is the most vile shit in the world. As long as don’t actively call for violence on anyone.

        And secondly, even if we agreed with you that some ideas deserve punishing, before you call him a white supremacist, you have to prove he is indeed a white supremacist, just saying he is doesn’t say so. Guilty by association doesn’t make you a white supremacist. Citing statistical facts is not racism, that’s not how statistics work. Group cohesion studies are not only not racist, but fucking academical subjects.

        • Timothy Rincon

          But at the same time, that doesn’t mean people don’t have to be forced to listen to what that person has to say.

          • Mr.Towel

            They can remove themselves and cover their years if they find it so hurtful to hear.

            And if so they wish, they can also remove him from their property, as Playtonics is doing it.

            That’s not to say that is ethical or the polite thing to do to. If you want to build bridges, increase diversity and tolerance, you don’t go out ostracizing people for their ideas, you speak with them, you talk to them, you communicate.

          • Timothy Rincon

            And people can get punished for what they state or face consequences for what they say.

            It’s pretty much like if a kid said a swear word in front of their parents and they punish the kid for it.

          • Mr.Towel

            So playtonic is JonTron’s daddy? JonTron DESERVES a beating for speaking bad words? Punch the nazis? That’s the relationship between normal adults? Are spanking to become an official form of punishment?

            They can’t just say “I appreciate your work but that’s your own fucking opinion?”like normal adults?

          • Timothy Rincon

            It was a metaphor you dolt. To serve a point that if you say certain things, you can face consequences for it.

          • Mr.Towel

            I know you can face fucking consequences for it you dolt.

            What we are saying is that this consequence doesn’t seem reasonable.

          • Garlador

            If anything, he got off easy. Playtonic removing him from a game is as banal a punishment as anyone could get.

          • Timothy Rincon

            How? Jon said something stupid, so Playtronic did everything they could to distance their game from him. That makes logical sense.

          • Mr.Towel

            No logical sense when he fucking admited he said some dumb shit.

            No logical sense when he was not calling for violence on anyone. Unreasonable.

            Not when loved so much and helped with their project.

            Not when he is obviously not racist.

            Not when they say it’s for diversity, but not diversity of opinions.

            Yeah, fucking face the consequences, but they have scale to it, a gradation You pay an amount for the crimes you commit. This was a little too much.

          • Timothy Rincon

            How is an opinion that is racist, which is based on being NOT supporting diversity, supposed to be for diversity? That makes no sense.

            At most, Jon told some people about the game. But you’re being incredibly unfair to think that ALL the attention for the game came from Jon alone. There’s been a ton of different articles that talked about the game, or the fact that people support and follow the works of the people tied into the game.

          • Mr.Towel

            Im not saying ALL the attention came form the game, that is your words on my mouth. I’m saying that he brought a lot of people, that’s it.

            And again, the opinion being “racist” its your own judgement, his opinions doesn’t seem racist for a lot of people. Playtronics should have the self-conciousness to perceive that about themselves.

          • Timothy Rincon

            I’ve listened to Jon’s words. I have judged them to be pretty racist. And Playtronic has every right to come to the same conclusion and take steps to not be involved with that.

        • Jim

          Your “Free Market of Ideas” seems to prohibit the idea that an organization is free to not include people with certain ideas they deem detrimental to the health of their organization. Freedom of speech and thought doesn’t mean everyone has to be inclusive of every view. It means you can express your view, and the government can’t stop you or punish you. That’s it.

          In the real world, when you say something stupid at the wrong time, especially when you have a broad public appeal, you often face severe consequences, regardless of the intent of your words. I had a friend lose a job from a major national corporation for saying something far less inflammatory in a harmless conversation with a fellow employee. The over-the-top outrage over this is, I believe, people used to the comfortable anonymity and impersonal nature of the internet not understanding how differently the world actually works and how consequential minor actions and words can be. Playtonic’s actions are mild in comparison to what might happen to others in different circumstances who said the same things as JonTron.

          • Playtonic’s actions are mild in comparison to what might happen to others in different circumstances who said the same things as JonTron.

            Except there is a zero sum overlap between what JonTron said and Playtonic’s business.

            It’s two completely disparate communities.

            As I mentioned in another post, where was the exact public outcry toward Playtonic to distance themselves? The general populace interested in the game didn’t care about politics, and the general populace who were interested in JonTron’s politics didn’t care about the game.

            Playtonic was literally the only one who conflated the two in the public domain.

          • FlamingoJet

            From Neogaf, is my understanding. They orechestrated the whole thing. Them and their little slimey, SJW hive.

          • VLOCKUP

            You mean SJWfags.

          • Jim

            Really? There is no possible relationship between his comments and their business? Two completely disparate communities? So Playtonic doesn’t market to people who might watch and disagree with JonTron? Playtonic doesn’t market to anyone of color that might catch wind of the comments and be turned off?

            There doesn’t have to be a public outcry to allow a business to make a decision that they think is best for the future health of their organization, and frankly, there rarely are public outcries that precede businesses making decisions to cut ties with public figures. How many people just privately choose not to associate with certain businesses? There are businesses I won’t buy things from, but I don’t feel the need to let everybody know or the reasons why. Good businesses try to predict public reactions and stay ahead of the curve. It is very understandable that Playtonic thinks their business could be affected by actively and publicly including anyone in their product who said the things he said, especially someone with 3 million youtube subscribers.

            Of course, I’m not claiming they made the best business decision; maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Only that it was reasonable and understandable for them to take the action they took, and JonTron himself admitted this on his twitter (and genuinely wished them the best of luck with their game). He seems to know he said some asinine things and paid a (relatively small) price for it. If he remains mature about it and is contrite, perhaps they can work together again in the near future, if that would be something he wants. If he doesn’t want that, then who is really harmed here that anyone should get so upset?

          • So Playtonic doesn’t market to people who might watch and disagree with JonTron? Playtonic doesn’t market to anyone of color that might catch wind of the comments and be turned off?

            Sure they might… but is the overlap significant enough to warrant a public statement that reached millions of people? Do you have this demographic data to show said overlap?

            There doesn’t have to be a public outcry to allow a business to make a decision that they think is best for the future health of their organization,

            Except all this did was make a lot of people bitter towards Kickstarter projects (which doesn’t help Kickstarter or other upstarts) and it made a large enough vocal segment of the gaming community embittered toward Playtonic. How exactly is that what’s best for the future health of their organization? You do know that they’re now regarded in the gaming community as reliable and trustworthy as Comcept right? There’s no good will left toward Comcept, and this spells doom for any future project from Playtonic, especially if it requires crowdfunding.

            It is very understandable that Playtonic thinks their business could be affected by actively and publicly including anyone in their product who said the things he said, especially someone with 3 million youtube subscribers.

            Except no one was making an outcry about it. Why would their business be affected if the general public interested in their business didn’t care until they made the announcement? It makes no sense. Now their business is affected and only in a negative way, especially with the bans, censorship and refund refusal. How on Earth is this good for their business?

  • Blake

    What’s the only thing we could do to make people not buy this game?

    WELP

  • “[…] especially after JonTron posted an apology video.”

    But it wasn’t actually an apology video. What it was was a clarification and expansion of what he was trying to say during Desinty’s livestream.

    • Fear Me I Am Free

      What pisses me off about this whole ordeal is that in reality this isn’t about Jontron being racist. It’s about people disagreeing with his opinion. He wasn’t trying to be intentionally racist. If he was, I could understand them removing him, but he wasn’t at all.

      • EmoryM

        The left has expanded their definition of racism to include anything they disagree with – if you believe that race isn’t a social construct, that it’s genetic, you’re a racist. That affects most people with vision. It’s time to stop caring about racism unless they can point to an event that actually affected someone’s life – this perpetual witch-hunt for thoughtcrime is bullshit.

        • Timothy Rincon

          Or, you know, the simpler answer is that the people involved in the game don’t want someone like JonTron with his controversial views to be associated with the game. There’s literally no reason to think it has to do with some crazy “leftist thoughtcrime”. That just makes you sound like a conspiracy nut.

          • Garlador

            Pretty much. And you don’t have to be a leftist to disagree with JonTron. I’m a conservative Republican and disagreeing with his statements just struck me as common sense, regardless of political leanings.

          • TBill

            Then they also should want to give refunds to people. It is clear that their game has attracted an audience of gamers with controversial opinions. They should want to distance themselves from players who hold such views. As long as they refuse to give refunds, they are hypocrites.

          • Timothy Rincon

            Refunds are a privilege, not a right. Even in real life when you ask for refunds from the store, you have to follow the store’s rules on whether or not you even qualify for a refund.

          • TBill

            And where did I say they had to give a refund? I said they ought to give a refund because their game clearly has an audience of people who share the controversial opinions of JonTron. If they truly want to distance themselves from controversial opinions, they should be concerned about the audience they draw to the game.

        • Garlador

          This does affect someone’s life. Hell, it affects my life. Ideologies don’t exist in a vacuum. They build over time, find like-minded individuals, grow in strength and number, and then ultimately enact real harm to others. That’s not hypothesis; that’s history. And, in many cases, that’s also the present many of us live with every day.

          • TBill

            True, ideologies build over time. They will do that whether in the shadows or out in the open. In fact, once they are forced into the shadows, they grow faster and become more vicious. Why? Persecution acts as recruitment tool, and once out of the light, there is no public visibility to temper the opinions.

      • This.

        For crying out loud, how many of us misrepresent a stat? How many of us use the wrong citation? How many of us say something out of turn by mistake? He made a simple mistake, and you’re right, he wasn’t intentionally trying to push for racism and he did try to explain himself further, but the media turned it into a debate about racism. Now, if you check forums or comment sections, it’s a race-hating debate and the media is lapping it up because it continues their hate-baiting propaganda campaign.

        • Disqusted

          Imagine how smug the media must be all the time, knowing they can easily turn swaths of people against each other for the stupidest nonsensical reasons. All they have to do is spin some shit out of context, and bam.

          • Kain Yusanagi

            Because people, for whatever reason, still think that the news is accurate.

      • Garlador

        Does someone have to be overtly hateful to be racist? Ignorance breeds racism just as quickly. Stupidity, misinformation, passion, misplaced ideals… they all can lead to racist rhetoric or actions. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”, right?

        Though listening to JonTron more over the past few days and following him on Twitter makes me more convinced that this wasn’t just a slip of the tongue, but rather more deeply-held beliefs. I’m giving one serious benefit of the doubt here and chalking so much of this up to his ignorance on these matters, but he doesn’t seem particularly willing to shift his stance on these views.

        • Fear Me I Am Free

          Just because he stated misinformed information in a debate doesn’t mean he was trying to be racist. This is SJW idiots taking what he said, blowing it WAY out of proportion and then running with it.

          • Garlador

            Or… and hear me out… this is normal, rational people hearing what he said, finding huge problems with what he said and how he said it, asking him to clarify what he meant, JonTron obfuscating and regressing the issues further, and it ultimately reaching a point where Playtonic didn’t feel comfortable with having him in the game any longer.

            That sounds a lot more sensible than some SJW conspiracy to unite against some random YouTuber without reason to push some dark agenda against persecuted white people.

            I listened to JonTron’s statements in context and his responses and, well, he really wasn’t doing himself any favors. If he’s sorry for the things he’s said and realized they were wrong, he’s still doing an awfully bad job at conveying it.

          • Fear Me I Am Free

            Yeah because this is totally the first youtuber that the media has railed against in the past year for what they see as wrong think.

          • Garlador

            It’s almost like being a public figure means more people hear what you have to say, including some of the stupid stuff.

            Though let me pause a moment to address the phrase “wrong think”. Would you not agree that there ARE thoughts and beliefs that are inhumane, unethical, bigoted, ignorant, and, well, “wrong”? Not all things are relative. There are some viewpoints, some opinions, that run contrary to basic human decency and morality.

            Calling it “perceived wrong think” neuters a lot of these statements of the bigotry and racism that would otherwise be attached to them. It’s just a new label for any view someone disagrees with, but let’s not play the “both sides are equal” card here, because some opinions are more damaging, harmful, and ill-informed than others. I think you’d agree with that, of course.

          • Fear Me I Am Free

            The fact of the matter is Jontron was unfairly hit my a smear campaign orchestrated by the very same people who constantly go after people for what they perceive as wrong think. I bet you there was only a small minority of people who actually were pissed at what he said. He’s already regained the subs he lost.

    • Disqusted

      That’s why I’m terrified of talking on shit like Twitter. Say one little thing that can be misinterpreted, and people will ruthlessly roast you on a spit, tear you to shreds and then stomp on your remains until there’s nothing left.

      • Only if you’re high profile. I once made a joke about certain Pokemon films being like Caitlyn Jenner, because they haven’t quite moved into the new generation yet and only introduce one or two new Pokemon. No-one saw this, though, which is kinda sad.

      • Garlador

        Well, as Bambi’s friend Thumper taught me, “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.”

        But… yeah. Watch what you say. Even on Twitter. That’s not a paranoid threat against the evil watchdogs out to get you, but common sense that you, as a human being, are responsible for the words you say and the things you share. They define you. And you are accountable for your words.

  • Grey

    In Playtonic’s defense, they did what most businesses probably would have done. Some people may be charging windmills when they declare Playtonics to have made the choice for political reasons (though given how often we’ve seen indy devs openly display support for ill considered social justice causes, I can understand jumping at shadows). Right or wrong doesn’t really enter into it on that level. Most businesses want to avoid controversies. If a person becomes controversial, a business distances themselves from that person.

    The trouble of course comes from bad faith actors, like the people from NeoGaf, who deliberately create the false impression of a controversy where none really exists. I’m willing to bet the overwhelming majority of JonTron fans and gamers in general hadn’t heard his comments in the Destiny debate or his later explanation of them. For them, Playtonic giving him the boot came out of nowhere.

    And of course there is also the problem of near everything becoming so polarized these days. It’s almost impossible to step back from one controversy without stepping into another.

    • Yep, well said.

      Oh snap… I forgot to add in the link to JonTron’s apology. Thanks for the reminder.

    • kalil6

      i understand the decision of removing jon tron (companies will try to avoid anything that can give them bad names like it is the plague).
      but can some explain to me why the fuck they had to go and insult fans and backers? “i dont agree that you removed jon tron” “fuck off nerd”. Is there a law that damands companies to insult it clients at least once when they are doing busniess?
      they could simple kept their mouths shut but NOOOOO, fuck those nerds we already got their money. THE FUCK?!

      • Bitterbear

        Because they’re untrained spergs. Corporate loyalty is very important, and you side with your employer above anything else. But you have to be taught how to do it without costing the company sales.

    • LurkerJK

      Why defend Playtonic then ?, JohnTron’s only involvement in this whole thing was perfectly conciliatory, all that was needed to close the whole thing

      Then they started mocking them, banning fans and closing threads, all they have to do was being as conciliatory as he was and let fans vent, it was them who handled this terribly

      • What’s so silly about all of this is that it was a public debate. JonTron should be allowed to say things people disagree with in a public forum, even if he was wrong about some stuff or didn’t say it in a politically correct manner. Essentially, what this move says is that it’s not okay to have public discourse about any hot button topic lest you get crucified by the media if you say something people disagree with in a bad way.

        • LurkerJK

          yep, if you are a public figure these days its like you have the eye of Sauron over you 24/7 watching over you, making sure you complete your daily virtue signaling and waiting for you to say the wrong thing

          and once they have something on you …
          http://movieboozer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers.jpg

        • Disqusted

          It’s not okay to say anything anymore. And a lot of assholes want it to stay that way, because they’re not the ones getting censored. Too much safe space nonsense.

          • Garlador

            But that’s not how free speech works. You CAN’T just say anything. Just because the government won’t arrest you for something doesn’t mean someone’s statements absolve them of backlash or consequences. That’s fair. JonTron said something remarkably stupid and then paid a price for those statements.

            If anything, that’s precisely how things are supposed to work. It’s not about “safe spaces”, because you can just as easily turn the conversation around to the JonTron fans that demand a “safe space” for him to say whatever he wants free of consequence. It works both ways, and there are consequences for either stance.

      • durka durka

        i repeat Wil wheaton and adam baldwin did voice acting on the same game, the universe did not explode.

    • FlamingoJet

      The problem is they virtue signaled and made a show of it by making an annoucement.

      They didn’t need to do that. And now they are censoring people who are fighting back against them and unhappy with the changes, rather then just refunding them or just saying, “No, you aren’t getting a refund.”

    • Disqusted

      Either way, it’s not something I personally approve of. There’s a difference between distancing yourself from someone’s comments, and going the extra distance to cull their existence. From what I’ve been hearing of Playtonic’s behavior, it almost seems like they did it out of spite more than worry of impact on sales.

      I still think Playtonic could have distanced themselves from what Jon Tron said without going out of their way to harp on about “diversity” and remove him from the game. Remain neutral and alienate a few, instead of taking a side and risk alienating large groups of people. That makes a lot more sense to me.

      The way they reacted gives more power to potential bullies who just want to cause trouble. It’s nearly guaranteed that you can find something controversial about anyone, and you know SJWs love looking for excuses to play the victim and force changes/censorship.

      Eventually, companies will need to keep changing things every time someone gets upset about someone on the staff. I’d imagine the situation would end up similar to what Metokur described in his video about how Google is going to change how they handle advertising.

      It’s a little different if someone was hired because they are a terrible person, or had connections, or something like that. Because that says something about the group in general. But retroactively culling someone because of something they said much later seems excessive to me.

      Ultimately, it should be up to the consumer whether they want to spend their money on something or not. If you feel you can’t support them because of something like that, vote with your wallet. From what I heard, the devs refuse to respect that, which says a lot about them.

      Another similar incident that keeps coming to mind is the uproar about Shadow Complex’s writer being anti-homosexual, or something along those lines. Did they ever issue a public statement about that? Obviously they couldn’t just delete the story from the game.

      • Heck Manveer Heir was pretty public about his racism and BioWare didn’t utter a peep. Those views even seeped into the game and their attitude was like “suck it up, lol”

        So technically it’s not even about having controversial opinions or views, just having the “right” views. Either way it’s BS that anything you say publicly or privately, even nonchalantly or facetiously, can be used against you if you step out of the SocJus Ministry of Truth line.

        • Disqusted

          In a way, I can’t help but think this is all just an example of human society not being mature enough to handle the advent of technology and social media.

          I’m sure there are plenty of people who have controversial views but still work hard at their job to produce high quality stuff. The problem is nowadays political correctness and “diversity” is so rampant and high priority that people get hired or removed for those reasons, regardless of how good they are at their job.

          When a company comes out as being sooooo “for diversity”, it really makes investors and customers question whether they are hiring the best or hiring the most diverse. It’s a very reasonable concern.

          Investors: Please make the best game you can. Take my money!
          Devs: Don’t worry, we will make this the safest space for all diversity.
          Investors: What? Just make a good game, please.
          Devs: F**k you, bigot.
          Investors: Now I regret supporting you. Please return my money.
          Devs: Go to hell.

          • Timothy Rincon

            That is literally not what happened at all here and you know it. You’re exaggerating the situation to the point of outright lying.

          • VLOCKUP

            Right. Can’t give people their money back since fuck the backers for having “privilege” and no customer rights.

            You want to support the game, buy it. Excessively defending Playtonic’s actions in response to people lashing out makes you look like a blind shill fanboy. Just stop it.

            What’s done is done and Playtonic’s overall image is tarnished. Yooka-Laylee will sell, that much is true but uncertain, but future projects with Playtonic will make people skeptical by bringing up the “Diversity” comment. And some backers will simply boycott them. Who can tell what will the next Kickstarter game by Playtonic would turn out in response to this incident. The internet doesn’t forget easily.

      • LurkerJK

        Don’t forget about Hulk Hogan, a few n words in a private conversation while he was distraught about his daughter and they ERASED him from existence

    • durka durka

      “Most businesses want to avoid controversies”

      ” If a person becomes controversial, a business distances themselves from that person.”

      You might want to tell that to the playtonic staff members because they are major cuntroversial asswipes.

      • Timothy Rincon

        How the fuck are THEY asswipes when it was Jon who said idiotic things online more then once? You’re just victim blaming now.

    • Mr.Towel

      The controversy was clearly fabricated, it was only a sect of more extreme SJW who would objectify. Playtonic fired him out of a public concern that just didn’t exist.

      Still, what I usually see in this kind of controversy is some PR guy from the company coming along and saying “the opinions of person X doesn’t represent the opinions of our company and that’s it. No firing, no slap on the wrist, no virtue signaling, no snarky remarks nothing, just washing their hands.

      Somehow, this time, they decided its better to fire because… just because.

      • Garlador

        I listened to JonTron’s statements in-context, followed his twitter, and have tried to stay up to date on his actions.

        No, there was a legitimate concern there that does exist, and honestly as a long-time JonTron fan, I’m actually shocked he doubled-down on some of the things he said that devalue me at my very core.

        • Mr.Towel

          I also heard in context, and I don’t thing anything inherently racist with what he said. If you do say he is racist, the onus of the proof is on you, you have to prove that he is racist. He is not racist by default and have to prove not to be. He is innocent by the default and mus t be proved guilty.

          • Garlador

            This isn’t a judicial court. This is the court of public opinion. “Innocent until proven guilty” is a legal term, not a social one, especially in regards to personal opinion.

            I never said JonTron himself was racist, but his statements definitely WERE. I already said I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt that his statements came from a place of ignorance rather than outright malice, but that doesn’t make them any less questionable and concerning, especially if he doesn’t take steps to see exactly why those statements are reprehensible.

            If you didn’t find anything he said inherently racist, then I’m envious. I’m not being sarcastic or condescending here, but I would suggest finding someone belonging to the ethnicity and creeds JonTron spoke ill off and getting to know and understanding why JonTron’s statements are offensive and racist. As a child of Muslim immigrants, I come pretty close, but I more empathize than sympathize, as it were.

          • Mr.Towel

            It’s not just a legal term, it’s a axiom of justice, not just legal but Justice as a concept, as philosophical concept. This concept came first through philosophical works about ethics, not legal treatises.

            I’m a fucking latino, I’m from Brazil, he spoke about south american immigration as well, and nothing that he spoke there was untrue or filled with vile hate. It was just an statistical fact. He didn’t even say that “blacks commit more crimes because they’re blacks”, he was not saying that their higher statistical crime hate came from their race, he was just saying they have a higher statistical crime rate. Where that comes from race, economy, society, culture affecting black people is from your own judgement.

          • Garlador

            I think you should give that interview another listen and then track down his double-downs after people gave him this very out to use and he refused to take it. I thought JonTron would clarify his position better when this very argument of “you were just using the data, right?” was tossed his way, and that’s why I’m still quite surprised he somehow managed to come across as even more misguided than before. First time, sure, he was just flailing in the dark and said something unintentionally stupid, but he’s sort of kept at it since then, to his detriment.

          • Mr.Towel

            Double down on what? The statistics? The statistics are true, what they mean is up to anyone but they are true, of course he would double down on them.

          • Garlador

            You keep focusing on the statistics. Why?
            Let me rephrase; why did JonTron bring them up? Why does he keep bringing them up? Why, when people are pointing out why the numbers are what they are, does he ignore the very context of the articles he’s quoting titles from?

            “What the mean” isn’t up to anyone; we have the articles and the context right there for us. That’s JonTron’s problem. He seems bizarre uninterested in the actual context of those numbers, so what’s his point in bringing them up? Awfully odd to just bring up out of nowhere and then walk away from the conversation, especially in light of what the original article author was saying.

  • Ms_Fortune

    Nobody knows what public relations are anymore.

    • EroBotan

      i think people still knows that, unless they’re SJW :3

    • Bitterbear

      Only the old people and for the sake of their retirement funds, they are staying silent.

      PR/Marketing in the West as been thoroughly assimilated by Social Justice Warriors. In part because is the kind of profession that is looked down by the smart people. And the other part of course is because the places where you are supposed to learn that have being devoured whole by Marxist Academia.

      So you end up with isolated idiots who think that Amy Schumer and Seth Rogen can sell blue-collar beer by making these two pulsating lumps of flesh insult their audience.

      Also, the videogame industry is built on paranoia and deception, because stealing a company’s life work is as easy as plugging a USB drive, cronyism is rampant, and that’s why in some cases trust overturns merit.

      • LurkerJK

        PR jobs are low training, low pay and require mostly reading, writing and doing minor social media research

        The perfect job for literature, socjus and other mayors with little to no market value, the power over other ppl is an added plus, sjws love telling others what to do

        soo, they tend to fill these slots

        • Bitterbear

          It used to be more but alas. When these companies are run by infinite iterations of Sheldon Cooper, this is a PR disaster waiting to happen.

          • LurkerJK

            I wonder why the companies don’t have tighter leashes on them

            As an example, my cousin got the lead editorial and publishing job the second she got in the job for the online section of a smallish newspaper because she was the only youngling that had minimal knowledge of PCs, LEAD, with zero experience. She has editorial fucking power, she could easily put feminist news on top and make all anti-feminist news get buried on the bottom if she wanted and barely any oversight because the old dudes on top dont give a fuck about the online section

          • Wow…. that’s a scary thought now that you bring it up. But I think part of it is that most people who care about quality control aren’t actually over editorial because they’re too busy running ten other sections or whatever.

            It’s kind of like that across the web… you can’t just be one thing these days, and I think a lot of people foist that kind of stuff off to underlings while they deal with more pressing business.

          • LurkerJK

            heh, as a side note i have noticed that a few of my local newspapers are VERY feminist between 0hs and 9hs, all the top stories are about femicides, abortion marches, woman marches, whatever then suddenly goes normal at 9hs, its like the night shift has an agenda

          • Bitterbear

            Say.. Wanna fill your cousin’s mind with poison? Tell her to keep an eye on her bosses. Ask her if any private discussions with them happen in rooms with an open door and in an office with plenty of glass leaving the whole area exposed for everyone to see.

            And tell her to make a quick glance at her bosses’ desk. To see if there’s always a smartphone laying face up and with a blinking light because that means that conversations are being recorded.

            If all these are true, it means that her bosses are using these strategies as a preemptive precaution in case any woman at the office tries to sue for sexual harassment. I’m not saying that it’s happening but they are just being paranoid.

            Also, if any of her bosses is a married man with children, she should check the portraits of the wife and kids at his desk. If the photos are pointing inwards towards him, that means he’s straight, but if the photos are pointing outwards..

          • LurkerJK

            luckily those accusations are not normal in my country… yet

            there is a small group of very aggressive feminists with a foot on the government that have been trying to import US feminism tho, they ve been pushing a lot the past year

          • Bitterbear

            Still. Tell her that bit about the family photos and towards whom they are being shown, that’ll make her giggle. Chances are that she’s going to gasp and then you’ll hear her say I knew it!

            It doesn’t work with politicians though, they all have their family photos pointing outwards.

          • Mr.Towel

            That reminded me of a comment from an USSR defector, during the Cold War. I don’t remember the names now but someone asked him:

            –“How many people are necessary to subvert a whole police station or media HQ?”

            –“One.”

            –“Seriously? Just one?”

            –“Yep. Just the guy that decides which news are worthy publishing/following”

            Most job’s workflow work as a single straight pipeline, if you corrupt just one piece of the pipeline, you corrupted the whole workflow and all will flow your way.

          • Kain Yusanagi

            Can confirm. This was the huge problem with Mighty Number 9. She was the one that had full control over what the team saw from the people, and she shut out all our complaints and held up those that aligned with her worldview, no matter how batshit insane it was. So we got the product we got now.

        • Jennifer

          Maybe for some small indie companies who literally let a developer’s fiance(e) or friend be the PR manager (seen that a hundred times), but any company that gives a crap about their image hires someone with a degree and experience. I personally have experience in the field (and am currently employed in it), and I can tell you by their behavior that all their PR people are inexperienced and probably have no education in PR. When people just start locking and deleting threads they disagree with there is a problem.

    • Syndromic

      Except asian people. They take professionalism seriously no matter which industry they work in.